A final thing is tablet really faster than mouse. I have played tablet instead of mouse and I definitely like my mouse.
@clasherbabo said in #65:
> It's not really punishment though, it's the natural development of a sport.
Ah perhaps now I can partially understand. Among others: do you really consider online-chess as sport? I don’t think it’s a sport. Because there are plenty of people who plays for fun. If somebody plays for fun, should we consider him as sportsman? If you consider yourself as sportsman in chess (actually same as I do) you should not forget not every player think the same. And for those, who just wants to play chess, it will be punishment, as it was before kb was banned. How do you think, is 30 seconds or 15 seconds chess is chess actually? How many people considers hyper and ultra as sport with all principles, and how many are not? I personally don’t think hyper or ultra is chess. So I play them for fun. And with keyboarders I have lost that fun: somebody just hold several keys and can win by time. That’s why I stopped playing hyper or ultra until better times. That’s why many more other-input-method-players stop playing hyper and ultra. Is it good?
> I mean look at the top classical players. They all study new theory, they always must be up to date. That gives them an advantage over players who don't do this. But noone claims its "unfair" that people study opening theory.
No, it does not give them a clear advantage. You can have an advantage during opening and lost the game. But you CAN NOT play slower than mouse player, playing with keyboard. Do you see the difference? In your example there is an advantage but you can fight, show your best skills and win the game. Playing with a mouse, even showing my best skills, I can’t be faster than keyboard, is technically impossible.
> What's ridiculous is the hypocrisy of wanting people to pay to win while at the same time preventing them from getting an advantage by getting something for free.
Sorry, don’t understand that point. I have said already why in my opinion such revolutionary thing doesn’t fit (Li)chess reality. Do you have anything to say why it’s good to have something which let you play faster than other players, except for some idealistic way of thinking when “it’s great if all the players would have a keyboard extension” and sport argument (then it depends: whether you think hyper and ultra is chess or not). I agree: perhaps it would be cool, but I see no way how to realize it. I don’t find people conservatism as enough reason to punish them by flagging from keyboarders.
If you think it’s enough then next discussion is simply pointless: we have found where and why we have different thinking, that’s the aim of every discussion.
P. S. I already may see the main point of our discussion. Please, just answer the question (I know an answer but still): is it fine to have some input method clearly faster than others? It would bring something revolutionary to the site, but some players will be disappointed. Is it worth?
I think, no. It ruins bullet experience for many people, much more than number of keyboard users. If you think it’s alright then everything is fine, I understood why do we have different opinion. We already begin to repeat our arguments, that’s not a good sign, haha. And our further discussion may lead to argumentum ad nauseam, you know, I would like to avoid this.
But if you have other arguments why in your opinion it’s good then feel free to say of course :)
> It's not really punishment though, it's the natural development of a sport.
Ah perhaps now I can partially understand. Among others: do you really consider online-chess as sport? I don’t think it’s a sport. Because there are plenty of people who plays for fun. If somebody plays for fun, should we consider him as sportsman? If you consider yourself as sportsman in chess (actually same as I do) you should not forget not every player think the same. And for those, who just wants to play chess, it will be punishment, as it was before kb was banned. How do you think, is 30 seconds or 15 seconds chess is chess actually? How many people considers hyper and ultra as sport with all principles, and how many are not? I personally don’t think hyper or ultra is chess. So I play them for fun. And with keyboarders I have lost that fun: somebody just hold several keys and can win by time. That’s why I stopped playing hyper or ultra until better times. That’s why many more other-input-method-players stop playing hyper and ultra. Is it good?
> I mean look at the top classical players. They all study new theory, they always must be up to date. That gives them an advantage over players who don't do this. But noone claims its "unfair" that people study opening theory.
No, it does not give them a clear advantage. You can have an advantage during opening and lost the game. But you CAN NOT play slower than mouse player, playing with keyboard. Do you see the difference? In your example there is an advantage but you can fight, show your best skills and win the game. Playing with a mouse, even showing my best skills, I can’t be faster than keyboard, is technically impossible.
> What's ridiculous is the hypocrisy of wanting people to pay to win while at the same time preventing them from getting an advantage by getting something for free.
Sorry, don’t understand that point. I have said already why in my opinion such revolutionary thing doesn’t fit (Li)chess reality. Do you have anything to say why it’s good to have something which let you play faster than other players, except for some idealistic way of thinking when “it’s great if all the players would have a keyboard extension” and sport argument (then it depends: whether you think hyper and ultra is chess or not). I agree: perhaps it would be cool, but I see no way how to realize it. I don’t find people conservatism as enough reason to punish them by flagging from keyboarders.
If you think it’s enough then next discussion is simply pointless: we have found where and why we have different thinking, that’s the aim of every discussion.
P. S. I already may see the main point of our discussion. Please, just answer the question (I know an answer but still): is it fine to have some input method clearly faster than others? It would bring something revolutionary to the site, but some players will be disappointed. Is it worth?
I think, no. It ruins bullet experience for many people, much more than number of keyboard users. If you think it’s alright then everything is fine, I understood why do we have different opinion. We already begin to repeat our arguments, that’s not a good sign, haha. And our further discussion may lead to argumentum ad nauseam, you know, I would like to avoid this.
But if you have other arguments why in your opinion it’s good then feel free to say of course :)
@artyom7, @penguingm1000, do you want to say keyboard player doesn’t have a speed advantage? Why then so many players, like penguin, doesn’t play hyper and ultra because of keyboarders?
With “multiple premoves” I meant not just a multiple premoves extension itself, but also another thing in native keyboard extension: you can put a premove much faster using keyboard, and lichess mechanic doesn’t let you to answer premove after premove. That’s why keyboarder could just premove every move and you can’t premove back. If you think it means nothing, you are wrong: it costs seconds, which is decisive in hyper chess, for example.
With “multiple premoves” I meant not just a multiple premoves extension itself, but also another thing in native keyboard extension: you can put a premove much faster using keyboard, and lichess mechanic doesn’t let you to answer premove after premove. That’s why keyboarder could just premove every move and you can’t premove back. If you think it means nothing, you are wrong: it costs seconds, which is decisive in hyper chess, for example.
@VelociraptorRex I guess GMs like Penguin want to block keyboard because they nailed mouse and they don't want to learn new things; and also they want to forbid it to everyone else to keep their advantage.
I can finally play ultrabullet again. Thanks
www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rjMYq4QL0k
1:58 Let's remind ourselves how far KBers pushed the cheating. Multi premoving was their downfall.
1:58 Let's remind ourselves how far KBers pushed the cheating. Multi premoving was their downfall.
@VelociraptorRex said in #72:
> Ah perhaps now I can partially understand. Among others: do you really consider online-chess as sport?
It's an e-sport. Pretty much any competition in video-games/electronical games can be considered esport.
> I don’t think it’s a sport. Because there are plenty of people who plays for fun.
So what? You can do sports for fun. There is "popular sport" or "mass sport" which is done by the majority of people and there is top-class sport, only done by those who really care about it. Just because people do it for fun, that doesnt make it less of a sport. ESPECIALLY with e-sport. The vast majority of people play video games for fun, but some want to get really good at it.
>And with keyboarders I have lost that fun: somebody just hold several keys and can win by time. That’s why I stopped playing hyper or ultra until better times. That’s why many more other-input-method-players stop playing hyper and ultra. Is it good?
I'm sorry if that sounds harsh. But if you play it for fun, you deserve to lose against people who take it seriously. Let's take other esports as examples. If I play, lets say FIFA, against a top FIFA player, of course I'm going to lose. And if you play it for fun, why do you care so much when you lose against keyboarders? It's not like you play keyboarders every game, they are a minority.
> No, it does not give them a clear advantage. You can have an advantage during opening and lost the game. But you CAN NOT play slower than mouse player, playing with keyboard. Do you see the difference? In your example there is an advantage but you can fight, show your best skills and win the game. Playing with a mouse, even showing my best skills, I can’t be faster than keyboard, is technically impossible.
This is just wrong. Of course preparation gives a HUGE, HUGE, advantage. Especially at top-class chess. If a 2700 GM comes out of the opening with +1, he will win almost every game. And at the same time, you can flag keyboarders with mouse. I have pulled it off, others have pulled it off.
>Do you have anything to say why it’s good to have something which let you play faster than other players, except for some idealistic way of thinking when “it’s great if all the players would have a keyboard extension” and sport argument (then it depends: whether you think hyper and ultra is chess or not).
There is no other argument needed, at all. Ultrabullet is definitely an e-sport.
But again, there is still other arguments, like kb vs kb being more fun and more fair. Banning kb is just putting up an artificial barrier to the game's potential.
> I agree: perhaps it would be cool, but I see no way how to realize it. I don’t find people conservatism as enough reason to punish them by flagging from keyboarders.
now you're talking about punishment again. It isn't punishment, especially not if you "play for fun", like you suggest.
> is it fine to have some input method clearly faster than others? It would bring something revolutionary to the site, but some players will be disappointed. Is it worth?
Of course it is! Anyone has access to keyboard, so it is in everyone's own responsibility if they don't use it. If you're so disappointed but instead of doing something about it, you just whine, that's on you.
> Ah perhaps now I can partially understand. Among others: do you really consider online-chess as sport?
It's an e-sport. Pretty much any competition in video-games/electronical games can be considered esport.
> I don’t think it’s a sport. Because there are plenty of people who plays for fun.
So what? You can do sports for fun. There is "popular sport" or "mass sport" which is done by the majority of people and there is top-class sport, only done by those who really care about it. Just because people do it for fun, that doesnt make it less of a sport. ESPECIALLY with e-sport. The vast majority of people play video games for fun, but some want to get really good at it.
>And with keyboarders I have lost that fun: somebody just hold several keys and can win by time. That’s why I stopped playing hyper or ultra until better times. That’s why many more other-input-method-players stop playing hyper and ultra. Is it good?
I'm sorry if that sounds harsh. But if you play it for fun, you deserve to lose against people who take it seriously. Let's take other esports as examples. If I play, lets say FIFA, against a top FIFA player, of course I'm going to lose. And if you play it for fun, why do you care so much when you lose against keyboarders? It's not like you play keyboarders every game, they are a minority.
> No, it does not give them a clear advantage. You can have an advantage during opening and lost the game. But you CAN NOT play slower than mouse player, playing with keyboard. Do you see the difference? In your example there is an advantage but you can fight, show your best skills and win the game. Playing with a mouse, even showing my best skills, I can’t be faster than keyboard, is technically impossible.
This is just wrong. Of course preparation gives a HUGE, HUGE, advantage. Especially at top-class chess. If a 2700 GM comes out of the opening with +1, he will win almost every game. And at the same time, you can flag keyboarders with mouse. I have pulled it off, others have pulled it off.
>Do you have anything to say why it’s good to have something which let you play faster than other players, except for some idealistic way of thinking when “it’s great if all the players would have a keyboard extension” and sport argument (then it depends: whether you think hyper and ultra is chess or not).
There is no other argument needed, at all. Ultrabullet is definitely an e-sport.
But again, there is still other arguments, like kb vs kb being more fun and more fair. Banning kb is just putting up an artificial barrier to the game's potential.
> I agree: perhaps it would be cool, but I see no way how to realize it. I don’t find people conservatism as enough reason to punish them by flagging from keyboarders.
now you're talking about punishment again. It isn't punishment, especially not if you "play for fun", like you suggest.
> is it fine to have some input method clearly faster than others? It would bring something revolutionary to the site, but some players will be disappointed. Is it worth?
Of course it is! Anyone has access to keyboard, so it is in everyone's own responsibility if they don't use it. If you're so disappointed but instead of doing something about it, you just whine, that's on you.
@artyom7 said in #74:
> @VelociraptorRex I guess GMs like Penguin want to block keyboard because they nailed mouse and they don't want to learn new things; and also they want to forbid it to everyone else to keep their advantage.
Very true. Especially Andrew Narcissus Tang, who is so in love with his "awesome mouse skills", that he thinks he deserves to be the best just because of that. Such an unlikeable person.
> @VelociraptorRex I guess GMs like Penguin want to block keyboard because they nailed mouse and they don't want to learn new things; and also they want to forbid it to everyone else to keep their advantage.
Very true. Especially Andrew Narcissus Tang, who is so in love with his "awesome mouse skills", that he thinks he deserves to be the best just because of that. Such an unlikeable person.
@RickRenegade said in #76:
> 1:58 Let's remind ourselves how far KBers pushed the cheating. Multi premoving was their downfall.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELs3A1zG25A&ab_channel=PoingkaaBogia
lEtS rEmInD oUrSeLvEs HoW fAr FoRmUlA 1 dRiVeRs PuShEd ThE cHeAtInG.
do you see how ridiculous you make yourself look?
> 1:58 Let's remind ourselves how far KBers pushed the cheating. Multi premoving was their downfall.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELs3A1zG25A&ab_channel=PoingkaaBogia
lEtS rEmInD oUrSeLvEs HoW fAr FoRmUlA 1 dRiVeRs PuShEd ThE cHeAtInG.
do you see how ridiculous you make yourself look?
@clasherbabo said in #77:
> I'm sorry if that sounds harsh. But if you play it for fun, you deserve to lose against people who take it seriously. Let's take other esports as examples. If I play, lets say FIFA, against a top FIFA player, of course I'm going to lose. And if you play it for fun, why do you care so much when you lose against keyboarders? It's not like you play keyboarders every game, they are a minority.
How to say... because it less fun, obviously, when somebody just crushes you, holding a single key. There is no skill even in keyboard flagging, though it definitely needs something to play an opening, yes. That's another reason, I think, why many strong players left ultra and hyperbullet chess. Of course keyboarders are minority, but they are a notable minority, haha.
> This is just wrong. Of course preparation gives a HUGE, HUGE, advantage. Especially at top-class chess. If a 2700 GM comes out of the opening with +1, he will win almost every game. And at the same time, you can flag keyboarders with mouse. I have pulled it off, others have pulled it off.
+1 is a decent, but not such a big advantage, actually :) Oh yes, it is possible but only when keyboarder doesn't have a clear position, has less time and still that is very difficult. It's technically impossible when your opponent just always premoves because of a mechanic which an extension has and I don't have, for example.
> But again, there is still other arguments, like kb vs kb being more fun and more fair. Banning kb is just putting up an artificial barrier to the game's potential.
We have discussed that already :) It's clearly not possible to have all keyboarders here, though it would solve that problem. Perhaps kb vs. kb as a single example may be fun, but kb against mouse is much less fun, have to say.
> now you're talking about punishment again. It isn't punishment, especially not if you "play for fun", like you suggest.
Indeed, that's my main point. Don't you consider a defeat as a punishment? Why not? I am playing hyper for fun but it doesn't mean I like to lose :)
> Of course it is! Anyone has access to keyboard, so it is in everyone's own responsibility if they don't use it. If you're so disappointed but instead of doing something about it, you just whine, that's on you.
Nobody whines. When I saw what is going on, I just stopped playing ultra and hyper, as many other players did. I am kinda sad now, actually, because I improve faster without playing bullet, haha, thanks to keyboarders.
You are talking about getting advantage... But is it better perhaps to improve your chess instead of playing with something which gives you some extra advantage against somebody? Even that example with opening theory, it's about the game, not about input methods. I don't know, we certainly have a different view of things, but I think playing better chess from the same (near the same, according to speed) input methods is the only fair way to win the game. So your opponent can't whine about different input methods ;)
P. S. Did you notice somehow we were kicked off from the Feedback Forum? I don't see this thread anymore and only able to open it when you ping me.
I mean, perhaps, nobody is reading us already, haha :) Don't understand how that's possible though.
> I'm sorry if that sounds harsh. But if you play it for fun, you deserve to lose against people who take it seriously. Let's take other esports as examples. If I play, lets say FIFA, against a top FIFA player, of course I'm going to lose. And if you play it for fun, why do you care so much when you lose against keyboarders? It's not like you play keyboarders every game, they are a minority.
How to say... because it less fun, obviously, when somebody just crushes you, holding a single key. There is no skill even in keyboard flagging, though it definitely needs something to play an opening, yes. That's another reason, I think, why many strong players left ultra and hyperbullet chess. Of course keyboarders are minority, but they are a notable minority, haha.
> This is just wrong. Of course preparation gives a HUGE, HUGE, advantage. Especially at top-class chess. If a 2700 GM comes out of the opening with +1, he will win almost every game. And at the same time, you can flag keyboarders with mouse. I have pulled it off, others have pulled it off.
+1 is a decent, but not such a big advantage, actually :) Oh yes, it is possible but only when keyboarder doesn't have a clear position, has less time and still that is very difficult. It's technically impossible when your opponent just always premoves because of a mechanic which an extension has and I don't have, for example.
> But again, there is still other arguments, like kb vs kb being more fun and more fair. Banning kb is just putting up an artificial barrier to the game's potential.
We have discussed that already :) It's clearly not possible to have all keyboarders here, though it would solve that problem. Perhaps kb vs. kb as a single example may be fun, but kb against mouse is much less fun, have to say.
> now you're talking about punishment again. It isn't punishment, especially not if you "play for fun", like you suggest.
Indeed, that's my main point. Don't you consider a defeat as a punishment? Why not? I am playing hyper for fun but it doesn't mean I like to lose :)
> Of course it is! Anyone has access to keyboard, so it is in everyone's own responsibility if they don't use it. If you're so disappointed but instead of doing something about it, you just whine, that's on you.
Nobody whines. When I saw what is going on, I just stopped playing ultra and hyper, as many other players did. I am kinda sad now, actually, because I improve faster without playing bullet, haha, thanks to keyboarders.
You are talking about getting advantage... But is it better perhaps to improve your chess instead of playing with something which gives you some extra advantage against somebody? Even that example with opening theory, it's about the game, not about input methods. I don't know, we certainly have a different view of things, but I think playing better chess from the same (near the same, according to speed) input methods is the only fair way to win the game. So your opponent can't whine about different input methods ;)
P. S. Did you notice somehow we were kicked off from the Feedback Forum? I don't see this thread anymore and only able to open it when you ping me.
I mean, perhaps, nobody is reading us already, haha :) Don't understand how that's possible though.
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