Virtues can be taught. Being virtuous cannot. You either are or you aren't. You can try, sure, but then you're just lying to yourself and everyone else.
@PloughBoy95 said in #12:
> Virtues can be taught. Being virtuous cannot. You either are or you aren't. You can try, sure, but then you're just lying to yourself and everyone else.
People can follow a role model's example.
For example: Christians can choose to follow the example of JC, believing that by doing so they are being more virtuous. But, are they actually more virtuous by following the example of JC? What if they are able to do that realy well, and can approximate the virtuous teachings he supposedly lived his life by? Isn't following virtue by example not virtuous?
I think following a virtuous example is virtuous, especially when/if someone has given their whole entire life to that cause of virtue!
> Virtues can be taught. Being virtuous cannot. You either are or you aren't. You can try, sure, but then you're just lying to yourself and everyone else.
People can follow a role model's example.
For example: Christians can choose to follow the example of JC, believing that by doing so they are being more virtuous. But, are they actually more virtuous by following the example of JC? What if they are able to do that realy well, and can approximate the virtuous teachings he supposedly lived his life by? Isn't following virtue by example not virtuous?
I think following a virtuous example is virtuous, especially when/if someone has given their whole entire life to that cause of virtue!
@Approximation said in #13:
> People can follow a role model's example.
>
> For example: Christians can choose to follow the example of JC, believing that by doing so they are being more virtuous. But, are they actually more virtuous by following the example of JC? What if they are able to do that realy well, and can approximate the virtuous teachings he supposedly lived his life by? Isn't following virtue by example not virtuous?
>
> I think following a virtuous example is virtuous, especially when/if someone has given their whole entire life to that cause of virtue!
It's all well good being told that you should "love thy neighbour as much as you as would love yourself", since we're going the Jesus route. Cool, great message... something tells me you don't live up to that, right? And that's fair, I'm not judging you for it because it's just something you don't have in you to do.
Patience is a virtue that's often encouraged, but there's still an awful lot of rash people out there. They can try and change, try and be more patient. But like I said, they're just pretending. All it takes is that one thing to make them slip and they're back to being rash.
> People can follow a role model's example.
>
> For example: Christians can choose to follow the example of JC, believing that by doing so they are being more virtuous. But, are they actually more virtuous by following the example of JC? What if they are able to do that realy well, and can approximate the virtuous teachings he supposedly lived his life by? Isn't following virtue by example not virtuous?
>
> I think following a virtuous example is virtuous, especially when/if someone has given their whole entire life to that cause of virtue!
It's all well good being told that you should "love thy neighbour as much as you as would love yourself", since we're going the Jesus route. Cool, great message... something tells me you don't live up to that, right? And that's fair, I'm not judging you for it because it's just something you don't have in you to do.
Patience is a virtue that's often encouraged, but there's still an awful lot of rash people out there. They can try and change, try and be more patient. But like I said, they're just pretending. All it takes is that one thing to make them slip and they're back to being rash.
@PloughBoy95 said in #14:
> It's all well good being told that you should "love thy neighbour as much as you as would love yourself", since we're going the Jesus route. Cool, great message... something tells me you don't live up to that, right? And that's fair, I'm not judging you for it because it's just something you don't have in you to do.
> Patience is a virtue that's often encouraged, but there's still an awful lot of rash people out there. They can try and change, try and be more patient. But like I said, they're just pretending. All it takes is that one thing to make them slip and they're back to being rash.
I think in the act of "faking it to make it" ; or rather act it to be it - I prefer, a person can realistically slip up because recovery is actually process; Life is a journey, and on that journey we are learning and practicing to become better people.
And, much like a drug addict can be addicted to their painful choices along in their journey using harmful street drugs - harming others - prioritizing that relationship with the drug instead of what truly matters, but truly wanting, desiring, praying secretly to recover from their sickness, but not finding it easy or an easy way out - the same is true about people who are spirtually not right in the head, or sick, for lack of a better word. So, how do we help them when they slip up, especially if its rash behavior to us they are doing?
Repentance (a change of heart) is possible, I confess, and sometimes it takes intervention from others to show them the mirror of who they've become without being rash about it. The Truth shouldn't hurt, even though not everyone can always handle the truth all the time. But, the journey of who they are to become is at stake. Knowing is just half the battle. Doing and being takes work. So, How should people teach them to use their agency to still become better people, after their rashness? Please Turn the other cheek.
It may not be always obvious how to be uplifting, how to encourage them once they are off the straight and narrow path - but, if we care about them, we'd do our darnedess to help them, I believe! It's critical in our journey to Love them like we love ourself that we don't also fall. But, if we do - I still believe there is hope or help for all of us.
I'm an optimist at heart, and I believe these things are possible - including the repentance change people can do caused by miracles within themself (which is really hard to explain, even though I believe its fundamentally explainable). It's not magic per say; but in a way getting anyone to change, even on a statisitcal level is kind of like just that. :)
> It's all well good being told that you should "love thy neighbour as much as you as would love yourself", since we're going the Jesus route. Cool, great message... something tells me you don't live up to that, right? And that's fair, I'm not judging you for it because it's just something you don't have in you to do.
> Patience is a virtue that's often encouraged, but there's still an awful lot of rash people out there. They can try and change, try and be more patient. But like I said, they're just pretending. All it takes is that one thing to make them slip and they're back to being rash.
I think in the act of "faking it to make it" ; or rather act it to be it - I prefer, a person can realistically slip up because recovery is actually process; Life is a journey, and on that journey we are learning and practicing to become better people.
And, much like a drug addict can be addicted to their painful choices along in their journey using harmful street drugs - harming others - prioritizing that relationship with the drug instead of what truly matters, but truly wanting, desiring, praying secretly to recover from their sickness, but not finding it easy or an easy way out - the same is true about people who are spirtually not right in the head, or sick, for lack of a better word. So, how do we help them when they slip up, especially if its rash behavior to us they are doing?
Repentance (a change of heart) is possible, I confess, and sometimes it takes intervention from others to show them the mirror of who they've become without being rash about it. The Truth shouldn't hurt, even though not everyone can always handle the truth all the time. But, the journey of who they are to become is at stake. Knowing is just half the battle. Doing and being takes work. So, How should people teach them to use their agency to still become better people, after their rashness? Please Turn the other cheek.
It may not be always obvious how to be uplifting, how to encourage them once they are off the straight and narrow path - but, if we care about them, we'd do our darnedess to help them, I believe! It's critical in our journey to Love them like we love ourself that we don't also fall. But, if we do - I still believe there is hope or help for all of us.
I'm an optimist at heart, and I believe these things are possible - including the repentance change people can do caused by miracles within themself (which is really hard to explain, even though I believe its fundamentally explainable). It's not magic per say; but in a way getting anyone to change, even on a statisitcal level is kind of like just that. :)
@Approximation said in #15:
> I think in the act of "faking it to make it" ; or rather act it to be it - I prefer, a person can realistically slip up because recovery is actually process; Life is a journey, and on that journey we are learning and practicing to become better people.
I could fake being a doctor, print myself a nice little certificate. Doesn't make me a doctor, so "faking it to make it" is just pure hogwash. Again, you're lying to yourself and everyone else. And lies have a way of coming undone, and when they do it causes nothng but trouble.
> And, much like a drug addict can be addicted to their painful choices along in their journey using harmful street drugs - harming others - prioritizing that relationship with the drug instead of what truly matters, but truly wanting, desiring, praying secretly to recover from their sickness, but not finding it easy or an easy way out - the same is true about people who are spirtually not right in the head, or sick, for lack of a better word. So, how do we help them when they slip up, especially if its rash behavior to us they are doing?
>
> Repentance (a change of heart) is possible, I confess, and sometimes it takes intervention from others to show them the mirror of who they've become without being rash about it. The Truth shouldn't hurt, even though not everyone can always handle the truth all the time. But, the journey of who they are to become is at stake. Knowing is just half the battle. Doing and being takes work. So, How should people teach them to use their agency to still become better people, after their rashness? Please Turn the other cheek.
>
> It may not be always obvious how to be uplifting, how to encourage them once they are off the straight and narrow path - but, if we care about them, we'd do our darnedess to help them, I believe! It's critical in our journey to Love them like we love ourself that we don't also fall. But, if we do - I still believe there is hope or help for all of us.
>
> I'm an optimist at heart, and I believe these things are possible - including the repentance change people can do caused by miracles within themself (which is really hard to explain, even though I believe its fundamentally explainable). It's not magic per say; but in a way getting anyone to change, even on a statisitcal level is kind of like just that. :)
Right... Well, speaking as a realist, everything you just said is bollocks. People don't change. What you are is what you get: If you're a drug addict or an alcoholic then you're not escaping that. The best you can hope for is that you don't avoid triggers that would make you turn to alcohol and drugs. But that's easier said than done, and once those triggers hit you then all that "progress" you think you made into no longer being an addict will be for nothing because you WILL go back to those addictions.
> I think in the act of "faking it to make it" ; or rather act it to be it - I prefer, a person can realistically slip up because recovery is actually process; Life is a journey, and on that journey we are learning and practicing to become better people.
I could fake being a doctor, print myself a nice little certificate. Doesn't make me a doctor, so "faking it to make it" is just pure hogwash. Again, you're lying to yourself and everyone else. And lies have a way of coming undone, and when they do it causes nothng but trouble.
> And, much like a drug addict can be addicted to their painful choices along in their journey using harmful street drugs - harming others - prioritizing that relationship with the drug instead of what truly matters, but truly wanting, desiring, praying secretly to recover from their sickness, but not finding it easy or an easy way out - the same is true about people who are spirtually not right in the head, or sick, for lack of a better word. So, how do we help them when they slip up, especially if its rash behavior to us they are doing?
>
> Repentance (a change of heart) is possible, I confess, and sometimes it takes intervention from others to show them the mirror of who they've become without being rash about it. The Truth shouldn't hurt, even though not everyone can always handle the truth all the time. But, the journey of who they are to become is at stake. Knowing is just half the battle. Doing and being takes work. So, How should people teach them to use their agency to still become better people, after their rashness? Please Turn the other cheek.
>
> It may not be always obvious how to be uplifting, how to encourage them once they are off the straight and narrow path - but, if we care about them, we'd do our darnedess to help them, I believe! It's critical in our journey to Love them like we love ourself that we don't also fall. But, if we do - I still believe there is hope or help for all of us.
>
> I'm an optimist at heart, and I believe these things are possible - including the repentance change people can do caused by miracles within themself (which is really hard to explain, even though I believe its fundamentally explainable). It's not magic per say; but in a way getting anyone to change, even on a statisitcal level is kind of like just that. :)
Right... Well, speaking as a realist, everything you just said is bollocks. People don't change. What you are is what you get: If you're a drug addict or an alcoholic then you're not escaping that. The best you can hope for is that you don't avoid triggers that would make you turn to alcohol and drugs. But that's easier said than done, and once those triggers hit you then all that "progress" you think you made into no longer being an addict will be for nothing because you WILL go back to those addictions.
@PloughBoy95 said in #16:
> I could fake being a doctor, print myself a nice little certificate. Doesn't make me a doctor, so "faking it to make it" is just pure hogwash. Again, you're lying to yourself and everyone else. And lies have a way of coming undone, and when they do it causes nothng but trouble.
>
>
>
> Right... Well, speaking as a realist, everything you just said is bollocks. People don't change. What you are is what you get: If you're a drug addict or an alcoholic then you're not escaping that. The best you can hope for is that you don't avoid triggers that would make you turn to alcohol and drugs. But that's easier said than done, and once those triggers hit you then all that "progress" you think you made into no longer being an addict will be for nothing because you WILL go back to those addictions.
Just like voting - I could fake being a voter of the USA, but being qualified by age and cittizenship - which is a criteria I agree with, being educated about politics, and going to the voter polls to make that hard decision is 100% helpful to make the vote count for the betterment of government. People make mistakes in their voting - sometimes with "buyer's remorse" getting who "they paid for" en mass. Also, it's not helpful to say to someone - once they've made a mistake, that they'll always make that same mistake, even after getting it right a certain % of the time, in their sober mind. The % time they experience in their sobriety can be magnified as they get better. They are not doomed to their street drug of choice or alcohol, as the statistical data can improve. Better decisions can be learned and done, practicing them - from the chess board, to voting, and even to drugs/diet/medicine. It's not hogwash.
> I could fake being a doctor, print myself a nice little certificate. Doesn't make me a doctor, so "faking it to make it" is just pure hogwash. Again, you're lying to yourself and everyone else. And lies have a way of coming undone, and when they do it causes nothng but trouble.
>
>
>
> Right... Well, speaking as a realist, everything you just said is bollocks. People don't change. What you are is what you get: If you're a drug addict or an alcoholic then you're not escaping that. The best you can hope for is that you don't avoid triggers that would make you turn to alcohol and drugs. But that's easier said than done, and once those triggers hit you then all that "progress" you think you made into no longer being an addict will be for nothing because you WILL go back to those addictions.
Just like voting - I could fake being a voter of the USA, but being qualified by age and cittizenship - which is a criteria I agree with, being educated about politics, and going to the voter polls to make that hard decision is 100% helpful to make the vote count for the betterment of government. People make mistakes in their voting - sometimes with "buyer's remorse" getting who "they paid for" en mass. Also, it's not helpful to say to someone - once they've made a mistake, that they'll always make that same mistake, even after getting it right a certain % of the time, in their sober mind. The % time they experience in their sobriety can be magnified as they get better. They are not doomed to their street drug of choice or alcohol, as the statistical data can improve. Better decisions can be learned and done, practicing them - from the chess board, to voting, and even to drugs/diet/medicine. It's not hogwash.
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